Curse

Rera · Sep 19, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

@easyg: Team A is more efficient than Team B. The transition from Team A -> Team B is achieved by replacing one damage dealer (offensive warrior -> heavy nuker), and replacing the boon prot with a stance tank. The offensive warrior does more damage than the heavy nuker (read Ensign's "Why Nuking Sucks" if you disagree). The stance tank does more damage than the boon prot, but the boon prot is better at keeping people alive.

You are correct that, on its own, minimizing defense on warriors is not an accurate metric of team efficiency, and therefore should not be a goal in-and-of-itself. However, my argument is based on a string of fundamental assumptions - see if you disagree with this chain:
- Team efficiency is improved by having more damage, provided that the team is still able to survive enemy damage.
- Warriors have the highest DPS in the game.
- A warrior cannot keep the team alive as well as a monk.
- Therefore, a warrior should be relegated to a damage role, while a monk should be used for defense.
- Therefore, maximizing damage on the warrior improves team efficiency.

stocker25 · Sep 20, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

dolyak sig
watch yourself
melendrus resiliance

with 4 attack skills i find this to be very balanced in every way. The only thing that can really hurt me is unblockable damage and sometimes if i use dolyak at the wrong time and have to deal with the slowness. Also does having several attack skills really up your dps that much? Id be surprised if i found myself more affective without the tanking skills.

isamu kurosawa · Sep 20, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

I managed to beat the mission into which u need to kill kuunavang (dont
Vig spirit and watch yourself is so great in team games. It really helps the monks when they dont or barely needs to heal the tank.

well when i play monk i hate it when warriors take VS, asi always take it myself and they seem to overwrite my 16 healing VS with their 10< healing one.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 20, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Very valid points all around, I like it, however, again, I gauge my gaming principles upon my experiences. Since all of you live in that utopia where PuGs know wtf is going on, and my PuGs are morons about 90% of the time [hey, it can happen...] then kudos to you and your perfect 'need no tank' skills for PvE...

Also, seems we're all off on a tangent again instead of just mentioning 3 [or less] skills you use to stay alive in PvE.

If you don't bring any survival skills then uh, don't post in the thread? Your obviously always in a good group since you play 24/7 and don't have anything better to do I suppose... [I miss those days]

My 'most efficient' game where I got lucky and had a full group to take out the entire ring of Island chain in one 4 hour sitting [I miss summer vacation] was with guildmates only and the only 'tank' skills I ever needed were Watch Yourself!! [which is by far the most efficient use of 0 tactics] and Dolyak Signet.

I've never been in a game where I could solely rely on the monk to always be there to save my arse... That'd just be too perfect... But I don't see why you'd need 7 attack skills and res sig. [heck, why not just dump that too!]

Can someone give me an example of how you'd pick 7 GOOD attack skills for PvE warrior who can survive Bladed Aatxes x4 on his face without monk help? [last I checked, if you don't bring any form of defensive block/evade stance, you're dead, guarunteed or your money back... No monk spam of stance/enchanting can save ya from like say, a 300+ point Sever Artery (x4)... lol]

Spirit/Mark of Protection do come to mind but not every monk in the universe brings these skills unfortunately for myself...

Ismoke · Sep 20, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

me its:

bulls strike (monk defense)

heal Sig (monk relief)

watch ur self (team defense) or Shields up or Charge

its a team!

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 21, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ismoke

me its:

bulls strike (monk defense)

heal Sig (monk relief)

watch ur self (team defense) or Shields up or Charge

its a team!

Yeah, like that.

Lots of you are posting Shield's Up!!. I never got a chance to test it in organized PvE, maybe I should! ^_^

Rera · Sep 21, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

@Yukito: I don't see why you'd try tanking 4x Bladed Aatxes without monk help. I don't see why you'd go into any game without monk help.

I find it hard to believe that all of your PUGs are so monstrously terrible that the monks can't keep you alive. Stop claiming that everyone else lives in a utopian world of perfect groups. It's not like that for anyone.

Here, I'll hook you up with some monks that can keep you alive, look for them ingame: Alesia, Lina, Mhenlo, Sister Tai, Jamei, Danika, Redemptor Karl, Seagard Gita. I'm sure at least one of them will be happy to help you out.

The Eddict · Sep 21, 2006, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Endure pain , watch yourself. thats it

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 21, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

@Yukito: I don't see why you'd try tanking 4x Bladed Aatxes without monk help. I don't see why you'd go into any game without monk help.

I find it hard to believe that all of your PUGs are so monstrously terrible that the monks can't keep you alive. Stop claiming that everyone else lives in a utopian world of perfect groups. It's not like that for anyone.

Now you're being a cockbite... Everyone else typing here never speaks of having trouble in parties with monks. I have said trouble all the time and I'm sure there are others who aren't as verbal as I am. Everyone is telling me that they never have trouble tanking cause their monk is so good, well then, it's safe for me to say that I've got the short end of the stick then eh?

STOP TELLING ME TO GET BETTER HELP WHEN I DON'T HAVE 5 HOURS TO WASTE STANDING AROUND LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WITH AN OUNCE OF FREAKIN' SKILL!!

I'm referring to human monks since henchie monks are ftw... They don't d/c, they don't afk, etc.

I'm going to say it clearly, [and hopefully we can get back on topic], the majority of human people [not just monks, whole teams] I work with are idiotic as$holes who simply drop at the sign of a death and get 'd/cd', afk, and all this other nonsense... It's true, the majority of people in general are stupid and I'm complaining cause I can...

back on track:

I usually read about complaints regarding endure pain since well, if the monk doesn't heal that hp buffer, you're dead after xx seconds are up. I've had few success with that skill but maybe I'll give it a shot. The 'endure/defy pain' skills sounds great for a tank just about ready to die but again, I suppose it's up to your support.

Rera · Sep 22, 2006, 01:04 AM // 01:04

How am I being a cockbite? It's a legitimate question provoked by something you posted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Can someone give me an example of how you'd pick 7 GOOD attack skills for PvE warrior who can survive Bladed Aatxes x4 on his face without monk help?

So explain why you would need to tank four Aatxes without monk support.

The reason I'm telling you to lay off the 'utopian' bit is because it's inaccurate, and you're using it to wallow in self-pity about how fantastically bad your groups are. You don't need the God of Monks with you to stay alive. Any monk that knows how to use Prot Spirit and Word of Healing can keep you up against all kinds of crazy stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

STOP TELLING ME TO GET BETTER HELP WHEN I DON'T HAVE 5 HOURS TO WASTE STANDING AROUND LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WITH AN OUNCE OF FREAKIN' SKILL!!

You're being stupid again. Nobody waits for 5 hours for groups, except maybe in HA. If I'm not with guildmates, I go with whoever I can scrape together in 10 minutes, and use henchies to fill in the rest. And about getting better help - since you agree that hench monks are ftw, why don't you use them?

The people who complain about endure pain aren't using it correctly.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 22, 2006, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Whatever... I suppose people should lay off telling me to bring less tank skills then... It's easy for me to speak the 'utopia of parties' since people keep saying any warrior bringing tank skills sucks... I'm not an emphasis for all tank warrior skills, I'm asking for SOME tank skills... 50% of your bar is attack skills and 3/8ths is defensive, by definition, that makes you an attacking warrior...

I'll say this then: if people can stfu about 'bring less tank skills', then I'll stfu about how pathetic my groups are... I bring 3 tank skills because of this, now please lay off and let's get back to topic...

Is one supposed to use endure pain before using Healing Signet / friendly monk heal? From what can be guessed from the obviousness of the skill, it just buys you time and unless you yourself can heal, or someone else can catch your ctrl+click, then I suppose it's not a good skill to bring. [for Grenth's Balance {E}, it'd be an awesome combo though...]

Just ran a Shield's Up tank for a group in AB. Those Barrage Crit assassins probably needed something else better to do, on anything else it was nigh useless...

For PvE I'd imagine it'd take better use, I didn't play much of Factions yet but where would someone have to watch out for raining arrows of death? [Also, does shields up protect from flying boulders the likes of Giants in Southern Shiverpeaks? I'm guessing it does, though it'd be amusing to see people blocking boulders to the face...]

Post one or two or three defensive skills you'd always consider bringing into PvE!

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Sep 22, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Yeah, like that.

Lots of you are posting Shield's Up!!. I never got a chance to test it in organized PvE, maybe I should! ^_^

ehhh hmm, i dunno about shields up!, maybe in the first fow quest when you get up near the tower where a group of barrage rangers are, but i cant really think of any other use in pve grouping for shields up!

Rera · Sep 22, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Endure Pain is designed to give you a chance. You're supposed to use it as a temporary spike heal when you're about to die anyway. At the very least, you have a few extra seconds to kill stuff or run away. With a decent monk, it's designed to give her more time to heal you, if the incoming damage is just overwhelming, or she's out of energy, or she's healing someone else, etc.

Shields Up is obviously conditional. It is a hard counter to any offense that involves heavy use of projectiles, but is next to useless in any other case.

"Watch Yourself!" and Healing Signet are the only two skills I can think of that I could justifiably take anywhere.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 22, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Watch Yourself! and Healing Hands are my tanking skills of choice, though the concept of a 'tank' still befuddles me, as I'm not that used to running anything other than a shock warrior. so when I do pve warrior, those are my skills of choice. I also like shield stance.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 22, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Healing Hands I wouldn't count since that's a non-warrior skill...

Watch Yourself!! and Healing Signet are hot shtuff...

Even stronger is WY since you can have 0 tactics for it to do its thing...

p.s. if you were soloing, would you change your tank skills?

I for sure would bring the tank skills for the Grenth's Balance solo build [my current favorite farming build aside from my Victory is Mine! axe build]

jesh · Sep 24, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

I use Endure Pain before I go into a group.. works kind of like a focus swap. You take damage, and after it wears off, you're at higher HP than if you didn't have it, since it's reduced by percentage points. Honestly though, I don't like that skill. I'd rather take Protector's Strike - my new favorite skill.

Fav. skill I'd have to say Watch Yourself, like everyone else. I'm looking forward to using Lion's Might instead of Healing Signet, I never did like that skill much. Iono about the rest anymore.
It seems like I can never keep aggro, things just run past me and whack on everyone else. See my hammer build, lol.

FYI - Shields Up! does work on those tundra giants, I actually use it when I run sometimes, just so I don't have to heal as often. It doesn't show as a "block", you just never see a red number.

PS - Bull's Strike works nice with On Your Knees! and Tiger stance, you can use that combo on any warrior.

PPS - Substitute "heavy nuker" for something else like a couple rangers or an SS necro and I think you definitely have something that can rival warrior dps without so much fear of enemy hexes and conditions.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Sep 24, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I use Endure Pain before I go into a group.. works kind of like a focus swap. You take damage, and after it wears off, you're at higher HP than if you didn't have it, since it's reduced by percentage points. Honestly though, I don't like that skill. I'd rather take Protector's Strike - my new favorite skill.

Fav. skill I'd have to say Watch Yourself, like everyone else. I'm looking forward to using Lion's Might instead of Healing Signet, I never did like that skill much. Iono about the rest anymore.
It seems like I can never keep aggro, things just run past me and whack on everyone else. See my hammer build, lol.

FYI - Shields Up! does work on those tundra giants, I actually use it when I run sometimes, just so I don't have to heal as often. It doesn't show as a "block", you just never see a red number.

PS - Bull's Strike works nice with On Your Knees! and Tiger stance, you can use that combo on any warrior.
PPS - Substitute "heavy nuker" for something else like a couple rangers or an SS necro and I think you definitely have something that can rival warrior dps without so much fear of enemy hexes and conditions.

you use bullstrike in pve? dang that must be some advance ai to to start kiting on you, unless your talking about pvp . . . in that case the word "tank" in "Your favorite team tank skills..." doesnt belong in the same sentence as pvp, sides i wouldn waste away 3 skill slots just to maintain 1 ias in a pve group

jesh · Sep 24, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Yep, in PvE lol. It actually happens more than you think.. there are lots of times that the enemies would rather attack Alesia than you, and you can land a bull's strike nicely. If you take Orion or an ele hench, you're guaranteed to have enemies running all over the place. Besides, knockdowns are nice anyways, right? That justifies the slot, in my opinion.. On You Knees! is just taking up space, I agree.

Still, if you want to get the most damage from your build, it couldn't hurt to have a longer lasting Tiger Stance.

Mera Regila · Sep 24, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Have you even played PvE recently? Bringing anymore than Watch Yourself and Shields Up! to benefit YOUR TEAM is completely pointless. 9/10 times if your backline is for some reason tanking along side your frontline... the moment you activate Protectors Defence they'll run off or be taking slightly more than just physical damage. The moment the 'tanks'/warriors have to take multiple skills to keep there team alive is the moment you lose.

Well, apparently you have some bad experiances with PvE because the backline is almost never tanking alongside the front line. Unless you have henchies and I really can't help you there >_>, I would suggest getting a good guild and getting a team together for PvE. Otherwise you'll have to deal with a lot of incompetance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

All warriors who think Dolyak Signet is good for general PvE and Pugs need to re-read the part where it talks about slowing speed and the part where Armour effected degen. Theres a surprising amount of people who use Dolyak signet saying it pwns, then say 'Armour sucks' when it comes to there Sword mod... talk about an oxy moron. If you must help your team, use Endure Pain to let you take more damage than you have health, meaning you can take agro better.

Dolyak Signet is very useful for PvE, apparently you don't understand. Not EVERYWHERE will you be given an energy degeneration problem, and most of the time the enemy is standing still attacking you. Especially with solo builds, this added to the fact that it prevents knockdowns and almost completely negates the armor removal from Healing Signet. Endure Pain is almost useless, its limited duration time and long recharge are bad enough, problem is it makes you think you have more health when you really don't, even if you are very experianced, the massive health loss in less than 1/4 second will surprise you.

I'd personally rather have +5 armor on a sword mod than 30 health. That's outside the point tho.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Sep 24, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Yep, in PvE lol. It actually happens more than you think.. there are lots of times that the enemies would rather attack Alesia than you, and you can land a bull's strike nicely. If you take Orion or an ele hench, you're guaranteed to have enemies running all over the place. Besides, knockdowns are nice anyways, right? That justifies the slot, in my opinion.. On You Knees! is just taking up space, I agree.

Still, if you want to get the most damage from your build, it couldn't hurt to have a longer lasting Tiger Stance.

i could sacrifice 25% of my damage and take flurry, and replace on your knees with another attack skill, or damage boosting skill, but if i was gona knock down i would probaly hammer pve, and yes i would actualy bring a non-shielded character into pve if knockdowns are needed, but i couldn't really think of why you would need knockdowns unless your doing "The Deep" or FoW and attacking shadow monks, or just all and all fighting agaisnt a group with monks, but in taht case, the monks and etc would be stationary unless your group starts to retreat